Interview published in Issue 4, 2020
Cindy Lee
Patrick Flegel is undeniably a special creature. The twinkle in their eye emanates a soul who has lived many lives and tapped into many wells of knowledge and experience. One of their most tangible talents is their knack for self-indulgent yet palatable music with an otherworldly twang. Having fronted the more accessible indie project Women, Flegel is now the central and most often solo member of Cindy Lee, whose music undulates between deep sorrow and unbridled elation.
Interview by Leah Gudmundson
Images courtesy of Patrick Flegel unless otherwise stated
Still from I Don’t Want to Fall in Love Again directed by Phil Osborne
Leah Gudmundson: What’s Tonight to Eternity is such a cinematic album to me. When I listen to it full through it feels like I’m watching a film: each song as a different scene with certain characters. If the album manifested into a film, what would the plot look like?
Patrick Flegel: The first song is about universal consciousness which I think about a lot. What I’ve realized is my generation, or at least a lot of the people I hang out with, are so blasé. I’ve realized that it’s really important to me not to be like that. For example, I think a lot of people avoid telling each other kind, loving things because it’s a cliché or a trope. If you were to talk about how we’re floating around in space, we’d all laugh about it- this juvenile ‘of course I know’ attitude. But all that stuff is true, so it touches on that.
The first song is about a raincoat. When you realize how boundless things actually are, and how ridiculous all the structure is in our lives- in every way, even how we communicate. You see how rigid that is in comparison to how fluid everything actually is, and vast and infinite. But then it’s also about how you’ve still got bills to pay, so it’s about that raincoat keeping you dry. This very practical everyday thing.
LG: So you have this situation with the very transcendent parts of being alive but you also have to come down and be a human in the world.
PF: Yeah, you still have to be responsible for yourself. I think that’s something that I struggle with, a lot. I was joking to my roommate the other day that I’ve been experimenting with self-respect. Especially when you’re a rocker I feel like you’re allowed to be a shithead, not give a fuck about anything, treat yourself and other people like shit. Often, you’ll kind of get this pass. I feel like I’ve done that a lot in my life. This song is supposed to be revering that things are infinitely complex and boundless but also that there’s a reality here. You can feel it, and it’s important.
I feel like sometimes people can be nihilistic when they talk about how we live in an infinite universe, but I think it makes it more valuable that we have just this one life. I guess that would be the theme of that song. Which is kind of fun because I never really thought about that before. I appreciate that you thought the album was like a movie, I love that. I love movies so much, and that really makes sense because that’s what my whole brain is composed of is movies.
LG: I think because it has such a strong and unique sound it became visual for me.
PF: I can’t necessarily think of what it would look like – the output, but I can think of the input. I’m always thinking of these totem stories in the back. Earlier when I was making music, it would have these kinds of totem figures; pretty dark kind of suicide run. Even further back it would be something like A Clockwork Orange - when I was in my early 20’s- which is super nihilistic. Later it would be something like Funeral Parade of Roses, which is basically where that movie came from. It’s this underdog character, but they’re strong. I feel like A Clockwork Orange the guy is just pure evil and he’s given dimension because he has more sophisticated interests that aren’t usually connected with being a criminal. But there’s no love in that movie. In the Funeral Parade of Roses, there’s a lot of love, so I really like that movie.
It’s these kind of underdog characters that are often present. They are on the fringes of society, they’ve been kind of outcasted by their family, which is something everyone can relate to, to some degree. This kind of disconnect from their family. It’s always these types of characters. I feel like the earlier stuff I did it would be a character like Carrie, who I could relate to a lot. Again, it’s a really dark indulgent, violent end to the story where she ends up a martyr basically. Or Linda Manns in Out of the Blue, even Harvey Keitel in Bad Lieutenant, or Taxi Driver. These are all the same kind of characters where there’s a suicide run. I feel like that’s something that’s really attractive to people because everyone has that. Kind of what I was talking about with the universal consciousness. It’s a disregard for any values. It’s this breaking point where people stop caring about any of the rules, and just start breaking them. It’s like, ‘Red alert! I’ve got to take care of business, I know what I want to do and how I want to do it, and I have to do it now.’ It’s a really tragic end to all those movies.
LG: Yeah, it never ends well.
PF: No, it’s a catastrophe! But I also feel some weird satisfaction in watching that unravel. Like you don’t have to do it yourself, it’s a vicarious thing. But the last album I did is less like that storyline. There’s way more optimism. Like I said I’m really learning not to take things for granted, and to work within the framework. I just realized how much mobility I have. It’s just about not being a punk and counting your blessings and treating yourself and the people around you with respect. It’s more that type of character with this album. Which I think is real character. Some people are put in a corner, and they don’t have an option, but I do. So, I feel like to volunteer that bad attitude, I don’t really like it very much.
Three stills above from Heavy Metal video
LG: So you find the album to be generally more optimistic than some of your past work?
PF: I’m trying to think of what the second song is. Oh, I Want You to Suffer. That is more on the suicide run tip. But that’s just one of these things where you’re trying to be diplomatic and compassionate- these kinds of Christian values of forgiving someone. I think that song is rejecting that and being like ‘You know what- no.’ There are some bad eggs out there. That’s a fact. There are some bad eggs out there, and I do want some people to suffer. Not too many, it’s mostly just one person. It’s kind of going back a bit to be like ‘you know what I am angry’ and it’s kind of homicidal or something. But for those kinds of feelings I think you can measure it out. Find something in the opposite direction in your present day that’s positive. Like Oprah says ‘success is the best revenge’. I really believe that. If you’re doing good for yourself and other people. In that song, it goes ‘I want you, I want you’ which is to say, maybe in your hatred of other people and desire to destroy things is a replacement for having something in the opposite direction, the opposite measure. To be actually intimately close with the person and feel loved by them. How do you see it? I’m curious about what comes to your mind?
LG: In terms of picturing it as a film, I picture it quite dark, but in this magical world with different creatures and spirits and characters. Running through a lot of different emotions. A bit film noir mixed with fantasy.
PF: Oh, I love that! I feel like you have been interested this for a long time, and a lot of people that I’m close to- which is in the midst of all this cerebral, academic nausea that’s kind of around us- is a turn towards mysticism and spirituality. Which is kind of what you’re talking about with film noir or Raymond Chandler who I love, love, love, love. There’s this filth of civilization, cops, criminals, detectives, rich people, poor people, no one can be trusted. Everybody’s kind of on equal footing. And then there’s this underbelly, usually pretty rich people, kind of top to bottom filth. I want say it was in L.A in the 40’s that Chandler was writing about. This kind of cruel reality- the reality of dealing with other people. Then there’s this other side of it too. Which is why I think L.A and San Francisco are so interesting, is there’s this kind of mystical side. In one of his books there’s a fortune teller and he touches on these strange things going on. That’s kind of the vibe of the record: reckoning these two different worlds.
LG: Having to navigate these two different planes where you can exist..
PF: Yeah, and they’re equally real. I think that’s why people who are willing to go there or think like that are… I think that people are pre-disposed to spirituality and mysticism anyways, I think that’s a human trait. I also grew up very religious and had some wild religious experiences when I was a kid. My mom believed there was spiritual warfare going on around us. That we were at war, and it’s in the air for her, that’s her reality. I grew up and I learnt that. I guess all I mean to say is that it’s not hard for me to go there mentally.That’s what I was going to say was, people who are in touch with that, it can really drive you crazy. Especially when you’re expected to work within this ‘real’ framework. That real Raymond Chandler world. You gotta be careful.
One Second to Toe the Line is exactly about that. For that song, it sounds like it’s about a crime of passion. Its more just a situation you made in a moment, that determines the rest of your life. Like you couldn’t turn back. That sides with a lot of these stories I’m talking about like Carrie or Out of the Blue, even something like Badlands or Bonnie and Clyde. Once those characters broke those rules, in this reality where there’s laws and emotions and all this stuff. Once they breached that there was no turning back. I think that’s why it’s so exciting to watch stories like that because it shows that you could choose – the potential. It’s a dark potential but how fun is it to watch someone completely disregard everything and do whatever they want.
One Second to Toe the Line is about watching somebody else do something and you’re hoping that they would change their mind. I guess it’s about me. I think that about a lot of things, where you’ll do something that’s taboo, or you commit a crime, it’ll just push you even further. I think that’s usually seen as insanity by most people.
Charlie Manson was thinking a bunch of things, and saying a bunch of bullshit- that’s one thing. If he’s actually taking action, that’s where it gets wild. That’s when it gets real. I think that’s why people are so fascinated with people who are deemed insane. I know a lot of people hate that person but I think there’s some truth in it. If they believe it, it’s true, so that’s of interest to me.
So, the song is about accepting reality. I do have a really hard time, or I have had a really hard time accepting it. It’s something you have to be able to afford to. I’ve sacrificed a lot of stability to afford the time. I’m lucky to have been able to go these places. I don’t know that I had a choice though, to be honest actually. I think it’s my temperament, it’s my nature.
The song Lucifer Stand, it’s the same thing. It’s a rebel archetype. I was really inspired by War Pigs by Black Sabbath. I love Black Sabbath’s lyrics, I really do. Slayer, too. Any band with really vivid imagery like that, I love. I like a heavy hand. Yeah so, it’s about the rebel archetype. I just love that concept any time I see it. A lot of the characters I’m talking about have that. It’s about this person saying, ‘wait a minute, why can’t I do it my way?’
LG: It takes a certain type of mind to think ‘why do I have to do what’s prescribed by society?’ The ultimate freedom is not abiding to anything.
PF: Yeah, and that’s glorious. It’s interesting to see someone’s mind completely ‘unravel’ in straight people’s eyes even if it ends in destruction. Even more, it’s admirable when people think like that, but they work within the framework. You can use it to your advantage. Manipulating things, or using it to play the game. I feel like that’s where it’s at and what I’m really into lately. It’s turned into this positive thing, this loving thing.
LG: It’s more finessed. You have the ability to step back and see what’s happening, instead of acting on things quite impulsively. You’re still able to think in this way but there’s more time in-between the actions.
PF: Exactly, it’s strategy. It’s a way of living your life. It’s more measured and calculated, and there’s wisdom in that. There’s maturity. That’s the kind of archetype I think about now. Someone who has managed to make it work living in both worlds.
Image above: Cover for What’s Tonight to Eternity
Illustration by Andrea Lukic
Kenneth Anger’s a good example of that. He’s an excellent example. He gets patrons, or sells his books to make the work he wants to. Or even Joni Mitchell who I think is a freak. I listen to Joni Mitchell’s music and I’m like ‘What the fuck is going on here, this is bizarre’. When you listen to her talk she’s on the level, she’s a very mystical person, very smart. She also was born in Fort Macleod, Alberta and grew up in Saskatchewan.
LG: Yeah, she went to the same high school as me in Saskatoon! Aden Bowman.
PF: Ohhh what! That’s amazing. I love her. She’s not some shoe-in academic. Not to say there’s anything wrong with that, just when it gets preachy it’s like- fuck off. But she’s lived in the real world. I just think she’s a genius. I think those are two people that come to mind immediately that work within the framework and manage to indulge all these mystical things and not really compromise their character. I really admire that. I guess a lot of the songs on the album have the theme of high and low.
LG: Yeah, it comes through- and has to do with the universal consciousness- the infinite ebb and flow of things. Ok moving along, what do you think is the song that has moved you the most deeply?
PF: The first thing that comes to mind is Expecting to Fly by Buffalo Springfield. That song just kills me. I just think of it as the most beautiful song because it sounds like heaven. I’m such a TV baby so my perception of heaven is like this Disney kind of heaven. Expecting to Fly has those strings. It’s Jack Nitzsche this guy who did strings on all these old 60’s recordings, he’s amazing. The song just sounds like heaven, the way you imagine a Disney-like heaven. Another song I heard recently when I was hanging out with a friend. She put on Les Rallizes Dénudés The France Demos. That music is for a certain time or place. I don’t wake up in the morning and put that shit on. But we were hanging out, and it blew my mind. It sounded like it was raining broken glass. It sounded like electricity in my blood. It was so cathartic and magical. It was weird cause I was feeling kind of whatever and she was listening to all these records that I used to listen to, and I was like ‘I love this so much, I’m not over this at all’. The Stooges and Crass and whatever, and then she put on that record. I had only heard Heavier Than a Death in the Family really obsessively. But this first song came from The France Demos and it just blew my mind. Also For All We Know by Nat King Cole. That one I heard with my grandparents and they’re fucking deaf. I was in the back of this car they were driving and we’re listening to this satellite radio station of crooner style music. So, the radio was jacked Leah, like it was SO loud. That song came on and we were driving through this park, so it was really memorable.
LG: That’s a good set-up to have a moment.
PF: Yeah, because it was a song they loved, and I had never heard it before- and at that volume, I really loved it.
LG: Amazing. So, I would say you live life in a different way compared to the average ’joe-shmo’. What drives the style in which you live... what are you searching for?
PF: I live slow. When I don’t, I can’t handle it. So, it’s made me un-employable. Mostly from when I started touring. Which really threw a wrench in my character I think, or it stunted my growth as a person. It also predisposes you to a certain lifestyle. I mean from the start, I just didn’t really care about material things very much. And I just love music so much. I love writing and recording music and I like living slow. I work very hard on music and I take it very seriously, I’m really passionate about it. I love it, and I have it, and I don’t take it for granted. I appreciate that I have something that I love so much. I see it as my trade, and it’s a trade that doesn’t pay, but that’s cool. I’ve always been fine with nothing. I wear the same clothes for 6 months or a year or whatever. I do like nice things, it’s not some oppositional stance. I like nice food, and I’ve eaten a lot of nice food. I feel rich, I’ve felt rich my whole life. I’ve been below the poverty line my whole adult life and I’m fine with that. It’s the life I’ve chosen. I saw this great interview with Millie Small, this singer that I really like from the 60’s. The interviewer was this British interviewer of course, they’re like fuckin’ snakes, and he tried to frame the question like ‘you lived in a derelict flat in blah blah blah’ some rags to riches type story, and she just shot him down being like ‘oh I love that, I chose to do that, it’s the life I wanted to live, it was great’. I’ve learned how to live so close to zero. But I’m learning more and more how to do it in a way that I’m healthy.
LG: Yeah that’s the thing, it can be very destabilising.
PF: Exactly. I think for a long time, like when I was in Vancouver, most of that time I was spinning my wheels, and fucking up pretty bad, and not really aware of what I was doing. Leaning on people pretty hard. You’re kind of being a punk. I think it’s all part of the trajectory though. In the last five years, I’m learning how to make it work. I think it’s why I’ve been drawn to this Daoist stuff. Ray Johnson is an artist I really love and I learned about Daoist books through him. There’s this book I got on him and there’s all these references in it. I guess he used to work in this Daoist book store in New York. You can kind of see the application of a lot of these ideals to minimal resource lifestyles. There’s a huge crossover. it’s obviously nice too [laughs] if you’re living like that to align it to this really deep spiritual meaning.
I really appreciate it though, making it work with nothing. You can be healthy and have real friendships and relationships and take care of yourself. I’ve always hated this kind of male martyr that I’ve been and I’ve seen in other guys. Where you have nothing and you’re broke and you’re creating what you think a rebel is, where you just are a drunk piece of shit. It’s kind of justifying your creativity or your art. I’ve really grown to hate that archetype. Anyone can get drunk, you know? Not to judge people- I guess I should just talk about my experience. I didn’t like the way that I was for a long time.
But having no money- you can get a lot of things done if you have the time. It takes a lot of work to get all the shit done that I do. I take it seriously. There are times where I watch the Golden Girls for a week, absolutely. But I fucking record. I’m not talking about it and wearing a fuckin’ jacket or whatever. I record a lot and I spend a lot of time on my fucking computer doing all this bullshit, and I work it! Like I said, it doesn’t pay much but it works the way I rigged it up recently, I just had this revelation.
LG: Oh yeah? What’s the new mode?
PF: Well I signed with this label because I wanted to be affiliated with all these artists that were on it. Essentially, they buy dead peoples legendary esoteric records and re-issue them. Alice Coltrane, Suicide - I mean Martin Rev’s still alive - The Fall, things like this. The point is I wanted to align myself with that really bad, it was kind of this teenage fantasy like, ‘Oh my god I’m on the same label as William Burroughs and Alice Coltrane’, like that’s fun to say. Feels good. But, they take money from you. I had a conversation with a friend and we were talking about how ridiculous it is. If someone wants to put your record out nowadays that’s insane, on their part. There’s nothing in it for them, supposedly. But in my case 500 dollars is like 2000 dollars. So, if a label takes 2000 dollars from me, out of 4000 dollars, that’s a lot of money for me, that’s 4 month’s rent. I take no moral issue with these people, it’s not some anti-industry thing I just think it’s stupid and disgusting. These people are all just trying to pay the bills too and I respect that, and it’s business and there’s huge benefits to it. I couldn’t do what I do now had I not toured with the Women band. People aren’t going to buy a record from someone they don’t know, that’s just a fact. I’m very lucky that I’ve had a residual interest in what I’ve been doing, enough so that anyone would buy it in the first place.
So, in the situation with What’s Tonight to Eternity, the record had been done for a year. Andrea [Lukic] had done the artwork, and I was so pleased with it, I thought it looked amazing, she’s my favorite artist- I think she’s a fucking genius. I was so excited about the record, and then it took a year to come out. Then I thought, ‘why don’t I just sell it myself?’ I’ve done that before and it worked, but I always have this artist inferiority complex where I think ‘no you need someone else, you don’t understand enough, there’s no way anyone wants this’ even though there this proof with people buying it. Long story short is my hustle now is that I want to go rogue on all these people. Why can’t I just put a record out every 3 months? If the label wants me to wait for a year, that’s easy for them to say because they have what, 10, 15, 20 other things on the go where they’re clipping a percentage. And it’s a bigger percentage. So I’m kind of like this novel, wacky artist they have on the side. And fair enough. I signed a contract, that’s on me. It’s not some adversarial thing. But it’s easy for them to say ‘No no, don’t put anything out. Don’t release more music.’ That sentence right there coming from a record label is a very funny thing to me, like “Whoa whoa whoa, you can’t just record and release music.” So anyways I grew more and more frustrated because I write really fast and I record really fast. Like I said I see this as like a trade almost. I’m happy to do it!
I just did a record in two months called Cat O Nine Tails. And I’m excited about it. I’m just trading it for money on my website. It’s not on the streaming sites. I don’t take issue with someone going to the dollar store. I don’t take issue with someone going to WallMart, going to H&M or going to Spotify or Apple Music. You can’t deny someone wanting to be thrifty. But the fact is the streaming services take a lot of money. I don’t want to put it out on Spotify or Apple Music. They take all your money. So I just thought, what about the regulars. If I have roughly 100 people that will buy something that I release. That’s good enough for me. I don’t need 900 other stragglers who like one song. Again, not an opposition thing. But that’s good enough for me, and it’s manageable. Like I can’t respond to 1000 emails.
Image above: Cover of Cat O’ Nine Tails
LG: So from this point on you’re going to only self-release?
PF: Yeah, and then if a label wants to re-issue one of the records I did and just trade me money to re-press something and it’s in my interest, then I’ll do that. Then they just do it on their own parallel time line, it’s not this thing where it’s a contemporary thing where you’re waiting for a year to quote ‘do it right’. I mean really that’s the way I saw Dead Moon do it. They were just pumping out music. I think that’s cool. Like yeah, you’re a musician- doesn’t it make sense?
LG: Yeah I have a friend on a record label whose stipulation is that as soon as he’s done a record and wants to put it out, the label has to.
PF: I think when people operate the way they really want to, then you get the goods. Neil Young and Joni Mitchell are both like that. Most of the people I like are known as being a bit difficult. I just like doing music and releasing it. I also like reading the messages from people the way that I’m doing it now. People will send me a nice comment, and I appreciate it. I feel like that’s where it’s at. It’s not buffered by anything. It’s someone sending me 15 bucks and then I go ‘here’s the files! And thank you!’ If I sell 3 records I can get a thing of tobacco and if I sell a certain amount of records then I can pay my rent and get some groceries, and it’s been working. I just think it’s cool.
Some people actually can’t remember a time where they had to pay for music. Like that’s a fact. Like I can remember spending 200 dollars on CD’s in one go. Thinking like ‘Oh my god’, when you’re dumping money into a slot machine when it’s super fun but you think ‘obviously I shouldn’t be doing this’. By industry standards it seems ridiculous not to go on streaming platforms- it’s all sold to you as this golden opportunity or proclamation of your credibility. But it’s not important to me. I like someone intentionally wanting to buy my record. I don’t need to be an exception or anything. It just speaks for itself. If someone sends me 15 bucks, they want the record. It’s not some like crazy trick.
LG: [Laughing] Yeah, it’s quite straightforward. So, as you’ve mentioned, you used Andrea’s drawing for the cover of What’s Tonight to Eternity. What spoke to you about this particular image?
PF: I saw it when I was recording and mixing the record. I just immediately knew. It’s such an electric image, its seems really, really alive; really vital. The embrace. I just think it’s so beautiful. It looks kind of grotesque, but it’s just so beautiful. You can’t see their faces and they’re just part of this scene. The candles add something ceremonial, or ritualistic about it. I just thought it kind of tied it all together. There’s this mystical quality to it. It’s a super baseline thing of two people embracing each other. I love it.
LG: Are you a romantic? What role does love play in your life?
PF: Interesting. Yeah, I think I am! I actually don’t know what that really means, romantic. But for what it means to me, yeah definitely. I would think of a romantic as a person who sees more value in something than someone else who is more practical. Yeah I’m definitely a romantic. If I think about in these terms, like – I go for a walk, and this chain of events happens, that I would assume to someone else, like my Dad, he would just get to his destination and then just buy his chocolate almonds. But for me I would be like ‘Oh my god there was this woman under the bridge and her face was obscured by a scarf and the light was intense, and then these pigeons flew and then the shadows… is that what you’re talking about?
LG: Yeah, exactly.
PF: I’m very dramatic how I see things. So yeah, I guess I’m a romantic. As for love, it’s so important to me. I had a really good conversation with a friend recently. I talk on the phone a lot, I’m cha-tty. We were just talking about that yesterday, just how much we value each other’s friendship and how much we love each other. I talk to him in a way where I really relate to him. We don’t have shared interests. We’re – friends. I don’t just list a bunch of superficial things off. We really talk about what’s going on in our lives, and our families and we really crack each other up. There’s this juvenile aspect that always revitalises me. I’m realising, I love people so much. Love is what keeps me wanting to live.
Also on the Oprah tip, loving myself does not come easy. I’m learning that. That’s been essential in me being able to care for other people. When you’re so self-involved and you’re in this doomy indulgent mood, you can’t really. That’s where that record idea for Cat O’ Nine Tails came from, self-flagellation. I don’t want to do that anymore. I think it’s ridiculous and ungrateful. It’s probably necessary, that’s never going to stop- people always beat themselves up. But you don’t want it to be the baseline of your thinking and feeling toward yourself. It’s an aspiration. What else is there really than talking to someone, and listening to them, and feeling a sense of connection and understanding. That’s the best. That’s love.
Above: Still from I Don’t Want to Fall in Love Again